Interview: The Known World

 Originally recorded on September 14, 2019. The audio recording for this interview can be found here

Lance Duncan  

Hey, um, we're recording, we're starting this episode from where we left off, we were talking about the fall black eagle barony. And then how we were going to go on the adventure of X1, the isle of dread. But before we go into the actual adventure, this episode I want to go over the description of the known world. And that is in the isle  of dread adventure. And from there some of the specific maps my dad made, and go over some of those and try to clarify some questions I have about them. So first off, going into what's written in the adventure. There is a map, a continental map in the middle of the book, and then there's a description of all the countries and everything. Okay, so first off before it goes into the countries, it says that there's a . . . this is a suggested map and the following descriptions are a suggested key to the areas mentioned on the map. So, you can expand the map by designing wilderness areas where the map leaves off. Did you ever do that? Or did you find the other modules first?

Bruce Duncan  

Before I had a chance, the other modules came out. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. But like you didn't really like, like to the south here or here or anything like that,

Bruce Duncan  

No, that, we hadn't done enough in this map to warrant going outside this map.

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so Okay, so for some of these, they have a direct analogy to different real world cultures, but for the ones that aren't, what I'm going to do is read the description and ask you what real world culture that sounds like to you. 

Bruce Duncan  

Okay.

Lance Duncan  

Glantri is a Magocracy. That is the princes and princesses who rule this state are all high level magic users. They live in Glantri city most of the time, though each ruler also has a castle hidden in some remote wilderness area. Actually, the rulers are more concerned with magical research than with ruling. Most decisions are left to various local councils of elders, and the princely stewards. The princes and princesses do not trust each other and live in a state of uneasy truce. In the face of invasion or rebellion however, they are quick to unite. In extreme emergencies, they will select one of their number as dictator to serve for one year. So what's your idea of that?

Bruce Duncan  

The movie Color of Purple.

Lance Duncan  

The Discworld?

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah . . .

Lance Duncan  

I don't know if he had written those books yet. 

Bruce Duncan  

No, he hadn't 

Lance Duncan  

cuz I'm pretty sure he started the books in the 80s

Bruce Duncan  

when that movie came out, I thought, gee, that's just like this

Lance Duncan  

yeah, yeah. But like the idea. I mean, obviously, in the real world, there weren't magic users. 

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. 

Lance Duncan  

But there's lords who live in a central city. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, it's called feudal system. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, not really. But, but there's, okay. So there's a group of Lords. Princes, who live in a central city, have estates out in the back country, in the countryside. And they leave the affairs to their minions in the countryside. Right. But in the case of invasion or rebellion, they unite. And they elect a dictator. So . . .

Bruce Duncan  

there is no correlation. In a human society.

Lance Duncan  

So there's a few options. Well, the the whole thing with the dictator reminds me of Rome. The republic of Rome. Well, the dictator was elected. The Senate elected the dictator. Usually the consul was elevated to dictator.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, but the dictator was already in power. And all the Senate was doing was confirming that yeah, he is in power.

Lance Duncan  

And then there's also the Holy Roman Empire, which they would elect the king. 

Bruce Duncan  

The pope. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, the Holy Roman Empire elected a King, the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. And it was based on the local, it was based, there were certain princes had a seat on the council that voted for the Emperor. Another suggestion for Glantri is if you look back at I know you didn't know about this at the time, but recently, Lawrence Schick, one of the designers at TSR, he released information about the original known world. Apparently Schick and moldvay. The guy who wrote X1, both were, they played in their original campaign and they called it the known world. Okay, and a lot of names and ideas for culture got transported to the X1 adventure. And Glantri and the kingdom around it, Glantri was the city and the kingdom had a different name, but they were supposed to be Welsh or French well Celtic basically. And if you look at 

Bruce Duncan  

Before Rome, Celts were big

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. If you look at the the little information we have about the Celts they did sometimes elect a central leader if they had to unite.

Bruce Duncan  

Okay, yeah.

Lance Duncan  

And I think we talked about this before, but we never actually went to Glantri while you were DM

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. 

Lance Duncan  

So okay. But what do you think about adding a Welsh culture or French culture here

Bruce Duncan  

That would probably be acceptable. Better than a Buddhist culture

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Okay. Then we have the Ethengar Khanate. We never went to the Ethengar Khanate?

Bruce Duncan  

Where was that?

Lance Duncan  

This area, the big plains area 

Bruce Duncan  

No. 

Lance Duncan  

Which actually is not big. For steppe nomads It's not that big of an area.

Bruce Duncan  

No it's not

Lance Duncan  

So the suggested culture, so we never went there, but had you made any plans for it?

Bruce Duncan  

I was gonna make it like the Mongols.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, cuz this suggests, it suggests a few different cultures, the Horsemen of Central Asian steps and Mongols, Magyars, Turks and so on. Cuz for for the area. Looking at the area, it reminds me more of the Hungary, the plains of Hungary, the Hungarian plains, which would be more like Magyar culture.

Bruce Duncan  

Right

Lance Duncan  

or Huns conquered the same area, 

Bruce Duncan  

Right

Lance Duncan  

But they're really all the same culture. The steppe cultures are all really similar. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

But you were going for the Mongols? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

That's what you were thinking?

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah

Lance Duncan  

 Because that's what the gazetteers go with, is Mongols. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right

Lance Duncan  

Okay, the Heldann freeholds, which are just this border area up here.

Bruce Duncan  

I had no ambition for that area whatsoever. 

Lance Duncan  

They're barbaric fair haired people who hunt, fish, and raise crops in isolated farms. Related to people in the northeastern kingdoms but acknowledge no ruler. So, related to the northern reaches. No ruler among themselves higher than the individual household leader. Culture is very similar to that of medieval Iceland. So if you're making it similar to medieval Iceland, what stage of medieval Iceland are we talking about? Because there's the Christianization period, where Iceland is ruled by a council of people. and, there's the pagan

Bruce Duncan  

it would have been before the Christians

Lance Duncan  

just when? Yeah, cuz there's a period when Iceland is just beginning to be settled. And there's different household groups, and there's no authority

Bruce Duncan  

right

Lance Duncan  

Let's see. In the northern reaches. Did we ever go to the northern reaches?

Bruce Duncan  

Nope

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And the Three Kingdoms. Some people like to compare like Ostland, Soderfjord, and Vestland to, like Sweden, Norway, Denmark, or different time periods of Vikings. Did you have any plans, you were gonna go with that? 

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. Like I said, the known map there, had so many things going on, that we didn't even get to, that I just gleaned over most of those to see if we would be using any of it.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, I'm just trying to get an idea of what you had in mind. So I can carry that forward in my version 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. And it just describes the northern reaches as vikings, it doesn't specify, right here, other places do, but not here in X1. But you didn't you hadn't thought of specifying each kingdom by country

Bruce Duncan  

 No 

Lance Duncan  

historically. The broken lands. So this is this area here. The broken lands are an area of rocky badlands and old volcanic lavabeds. The Land is extremely wild and inhabited mainly by outcasts and monsters. That's different than what it is described as later, 

Bruce Duncan  

right 

Lance Duncan  

Did we ever go there? 

Bruce Duncan  

No

Lance Duncan  

Did you ever know any plans for it?

Bruce Duncan  

I had ideas like Mordor for it. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, make it more like Mordor... 

Bruce Duncan  

right

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Cuz I know we, cuz we talked about, not in one of these interviews, but we talked about the extent of the Empire. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

And you said that the broken lands were partial, it was like a military domain of the Empire? 

Bruce Duncan  

Right 

Lance Duncan  

You know, just like, militarily occupied, not not actually like, 

Bruce Duncan  

yeah like the state of Nevada. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Yeah. But you're were thinking of like Mordor? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Like with the ashen lands and everything? 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

So you're also thinking volcanoes in there? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. And even swamps. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Cuz in the, in the gazetteer, they basically have all the different humanoid tribes have a place in there?

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. Have a small contingent, Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. I'm thinking of making it like the homeland of the orcs.

Bruce Duncan  

Sounds good. 

Lance Duncan  

which would fit your Mordor idea. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. Right.

Lance Duncan  

And as far as the other goblinoids, they'd have different homelands. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Rockhome. Did we ever go to Rockhome? The dwarven place? 

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. 

Lance Duncan  

Because I know we had crossed the Ylaruam Desert at one point. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

Because there's a, well when we go over the other map, we'll find that trail. Because you had a trail on there. Yeah. But when we're going, to that, crossing the desert, where were we going to? Were we going to rockhome or the northern reaches or what? 

Bruce Duncan  

The Northern Reaches.

Lance Duncan  

Okay. So we never actually went to the Dwarven place? 

Bruce Duncan  

No. 

Lance Duncan  

We had a lot of dwarf characters, were they mostly from Rockhome or somewhere else?

Bruce Duncan  

Mostly from Rockhome. And they didn't want to go back because they were outcast. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. But that brings up another thing.

So I've had an idea that I really want to actually implement in play. All demihuman characters or adventurers. . . My idea is to make anyone, any demihuman who's an adventurer is an outcast. Like all the dwarves, hobbits, and elves, they're all very insular, they don't like humans or humanoids intruding on their territory, and they all have their culture and they stay at home and that sort of thing. And the reason your an adventurer is because you were outcast for something you did at home. You're banished. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep, that's the way I played them. 

Lance Duncan  

You're not really an adventurer by choice.

Bruce Duncan  

That's correct. 

Lance Duncan  

Which fits with why Galron and his family stay in the dragon city instead of going back to the elves. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

That's just, Yeah. It makes the demi, it also gives an excuse to make Demihumans less common.

Bruce Duncan  

And Galron had a bunch of elves to go to right there. They weren't his tribe, but he could have gone. And I made that available to him.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, I don't remember that, but yeah, 

Bruce Duncan  

I know. 

Lance Duncan  

That was a long time ago. So dwarves, we didn't go to Rockhome. Darokin, Okay. So . . . well let's read the description first. Because I know we I remember skipping something. Oh, no, I just, oh before we get to Darokin. I got out of order of my questions. Atruaghin. So the Atruaghin clans, these grassy plateau, forests and hilly regions next to the sea inhabited by herders, huntsman, and fishermen who live in small villages. All the villages claimed to be descended from the ancient hero Atruaghin. If threatened by war, they will unite under a temporarily elected leader. Does that sound like a specific real world culture? 

Bruce Duncan  

No. Maybe the Cossacks of Northern Eurasia? Possibly?

Lance Duncan  

Right, Did you have any plans for them, because you also said that part of the plateau was under control of the Empire.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. It was under the control of the empire in that a tribute emissary went and assessed each of the clans.

Lance Duncan  

so it's part of the Empire as in, actual most empires worked back in the ancient era, 

Bruce Duncan  

yep. 

Lance Duncan  

They would take tribute and call it part of their territory.

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. And if they, and they were supposed to be an early warning system for the invasions from that direction

Lance Duncan  

they're a buffer state. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Similar to Armenia was for the Roman Empire.

Right. Um, did the Empire maintain any military presence at all?

Bruce Duncan  

Maybe a, I don't know what you call them. Counselor, whatever. Okay. 

Lance Duncan  

Just Ambassador 

Bruce Duncan  

they were not to oversee the daily goings on of the communities, but they were there to assist. If I asked 

Lance Duncan  

an advisor, 

Bruce Duncan  

an advisor that, 

Lance Duncan  

yeah okay. 

Bruce Duncan  

But not a vizier. 

Lance Duncan  

Oh, and also the Atruaghin clans. We talked about this before. So my idea was to make the Atruaghin clans similar to the tribes of Israel before they were united under a king. 

Bruce Duncan  

That would work 

Lance Duncan  

Because it makes sense, if threatened by war, they united under a temporarily elected leader. That's very similar to the judges. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah you know the judges weren't elected

Lance Duncan  

Well, depending on which one you're talking about, but Yeah. Yeah. And they weren't always recognized by all the tribes. 

Bruce Duncan  

That is true. 

Lance Duncan  

so like herders, hunters, fishermen and small villages. it's very much like ancient Israel before they were united

Bruce Duncan  

or saul. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. We're really talking about before Samuel, but Samuel was really the one to unite them all and kept it that way.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, that's true, too.

Lance Duncan  

But yeah, you know, the sheep herders. That works with the high plateau. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

And fishermen over by the coast. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. Or rivers 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Because, you know, you have the plateau and then you have the coast, below it south of it. Yeah. So so how do you think the Israelite, tribes of Israel would go with how you would develop the setting?

Bruce Duncan  

I don't know, didn't have anybody go in there. So I didn't have to put that much thought into it.

Lance Duncan  

But it worked with the situation of the empire and everything?

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, I think so. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. 

Bruce Duncan  

Because they paid tribute to both Assyria, Babylon and Egypt. Oh, and the Philistines. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Okay, let's see. Oh, now Darokin. So Darokin, the Republic is centered around the Capitol, Darokin. Its wealth is based on trade from lake Amsorak, a large inland lake, the streel river, the Eastern caravan route, and sea trade filtering through the malpheggy swamp. Darokin is a plutocracy, that is the government is run by the wealthiest merchant families. The culture resembles that of Venice or Genoa in medieval Italy. So, what kind of culture Did you focus on for Darokin?

Bruce Duncan  

To compare them to the Venetians, the people from Venice would not be right because they're 

Lance Duncan  

they're not on the coast.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, exactly.

Lance Duncan  

They don't have the sea trade.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. But they were very trade minded. So I was going to compare them more to that of Persia. Not Babylon, but Persia

Lance Duncan  

yeah. It also. Okay, so how independent were each of these cities? Were they like in a city state status? Or what was the,  cause you had Darokin can be the capital of the empire? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Which I'm assuming wasn't called the Thyatian empire? 

Bruce Duncan  

No. 

Lance Duncan  

I mean, it controlled Thyatis. But it wasn't the Thyatian empire.

Bruce Duncan  

No, it wasn't. I, like I said, compared it to Persia. And Babylon would have been part of it. Egypt would have been part of it, so on and so forth. But Persia was the Empire. Darokin was the Empire.

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And there's four other cities, put on the map in Darokin's territory. Which, if you were to compare it to a, medieval cities. I would make all those independent city states. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

But you're making it part of the empire. But how much control did the Empire have over those? How much territory did those areas control, cities control?

Bruce Duncan  

Well, there was a military establishment in each one that each one had to maintain. Because Darokin felt that they needed to have a strong military. And so the military was only authorized by Darokin. And so those communities had to give up men for the military and supplies. But the military was only to the amount that the city fathers or whatever, felt was necessary. Because in time of war, then everyone comes up. 

Lance Duncan  

Right. Okay. So, the Empire, we only ever called it the Empire right? 

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so the Empire, we can compare it to the Persian Empire. We're talking about the Achaemenid Persians, you know King Darius, and all of them.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, well, I wasn't gonna make it last as long as the Persians

Lance Duncan  

Well, there were several different versions. They, none of them last very long. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, I would say the very first one, 

Lance Duncan  

Which is King Darius, King Cyrus

Bruce Duncan  

Cyrus. 

Lance Duncan  

Those guys. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

There's only like four or five of them. I'd haveto look it up, I don't know, maybe more. But they were, they didn't last that long. 

Bruce Duncan  

No they didn't

Lance Duncan  

Because they, basically Cyrus came in and conquered Babylon. And then Alexander the  great came in a few generations later. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

And other Persians took over afterwards. We're talking about the Achaemenids

Bruce Duncan  

right

Lance Duncan  

I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right, whatever. Okay, so we'll compare the Empire to the Achaemenid Empire, which actually fits with some of the things referenced from the original known world setting that Lawrence and moldvay,  that Schick and Moldvay had put together. 

Bruce Duncan  

Oh, 

Lance Duncan  

yeah. Like Selenica is supposed to be Ottoman culture. And I think Akorros or maybe it's Akesoli had a different culture. I'd have to look it up. But based on like, the language groups and other stuff. Yeah. Because because they had different positions, different geography on the original map. And they took the name and they're not next to each other, even though it should. Yeah. But that, but that does fit a Middle Eastern flavor more, right, with the original source. So that helps. 

Bruce Duncan  

Its way before Islam

Lance Duncan  

 Well, yeah. And the, Yeah so, the Persian Empire, they governed by satraps. So you could say each of these cities is as each of the main cities in the empire as a seat for a Satrap. 

Bruce Duncan  

I don't know what a satrap is. 

Lance Duncan  

They're like, governors, or, they're like governors who are left independent and kind of like kings. Yeah. I don't know, it's hard to describe. There's some good videos on YouTube explaining it. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. I figure that would work. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. But basically, they would be governed like, basically, it'd be split between different provinces that are left to govern themselves, as long as they adhere to the, you know, army. They provide military service and money to the Imperial City.

Bruce Duncan  

Right, You know, you think about it. In a world where magic is so prevalent, to not have some form of long distance communication is asinine.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. You always had us have these magical rings of communication, 

Bruce Duncan  

right. or the teleport doors

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Well, looking back, there was already a magic item you had a book for, and it was a magic item. It's a, two duplicate scrolls and you write something on it with your magic pen and it appears on the other one. I think that that would have been better than the rings.

Bruce Duncan  

It would have been, but you guys never went to the place where I had those stashed.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. I'm just saying as like a governmental administration technique. Like, this is how you send out decrees to your empire.

Bruce Duncan  

Right. or warn of invasion

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, so I already put up a blog post about that, about this. But, what was the extent of the Empire? We already said that it had military occupation in the broken lands, military patrols and outposts sort of thing. Right? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

And Atruaghin was tribute state. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And all of it and it covers the whole Republican Darokin on this map.

Bruce Duncan  

Uh huh

Lance Duncan  

What else did we have? Karameikos is part of the Empire. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

and Thyatis is part of the Empire. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

these are provinces. So satraps just like the Republic. 

Bruce Duncan  

more like allies, though. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, I think it also like, cuz, the Grand Duchy of Kerameikos. In the companion book,  and historically, originally, grand dukes or Archdukes were related to the king or emperor. So I think that fits for Karameikos that, you know, he's a cousin family of the Emperor's family, 

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

And what's the status of Thyatis? Cuz Thyatis is originally supposed to be an empire. What was its status here, in the inside the greater Empire?

Bruce Duncan  

they had been met at war and lost, but the Empire decided that their sailing abilities were so great to let them be independent. But they had to trade with them equally, and they had to furnish the empire with ships. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. What about Ierendi and Minrothad, because I think we talked before and they were tribute states, I think that's what we determined, 

Bruce Duncan  

right. They had all been conquered. And so anybody living there, that remembered the conquering, were not happy, anybody not living would not remember.

Lance Duncan  

So they would have assigned, So the island nations would have assigned governors. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And these cities are where the satrap is located? 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

What about the five Shires and the canolbarth forrest, where the elves are? 

Bruce Duncan  

okay, where the elves are, they're pretty much able to fend off any attacks. But then there was no reason to attack them because they provided all kinds of goods and services that were not available anywhere else. I mean, magical. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, I mean like, because we had earlier described the elves as kind of isolationist 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

So the Empire didn't hold authority over them or what?

Bruce Duncan  

they didn't, but like anytime the Empire needed strong soldiers, the elves would come. But anytime the elves needed strong soldiers, the Empire would come in mass. And the five shires was basically the same thing. But they never went to war. So no big deal.

Lance Duncan  

I know we went to Selenica a few times. Do you want to describe Selenica?

Bruce Duncan  

It was a frontier town. That was basically just there because they needed a rest stop for the caravans. So anything delving into travel, they were keen on, and they knew how to travel most efficiently, 

Lance Duncan  

right. And our opening up the trade route from karameikos up north, I assume would help us out selenica's trade and population. 

Bruce Duncan  

Exactly. 

Lance Duncan  

And what was the, well, okay, let's go into the rest of them as, going individually. kind of covered the empire, unless you have anything else to say about the Empire.

Bruce Duncan  

Nope

Lance Duncan  

Okay, the Emirate of ylaruam, I'll just

Lance Duncan  

Okay, we're talking about Ylaruam. Okay. So what real world analog would you compare ylaruam to

Bruce Duncan  

more like the northern half of Africa, the Sahara desert area, and those types of people.

Lance Duncan  

So Eastern Sahara or Western Sahara? Because there's like the Mali, tribes. 

Bruce Duncan  

That's true. 

Lance Duncan  

And then there's like the Nubian south of Egypt. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah.

I'm thinking more like the eastern tribes. 

Lance Duncan  

Or there's Libyans. 

Bruce Duncan  

Libya is what I was thinking. 

Lance Duncan  

Or Ethiopia. 

Bruce Duncan  

No.

More like people lived in 

Lance Duncan  

like the mythological Libya 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

Like described in the Iliad and, Odyssey not Illiad. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, cuz they encountered the Libyans there. Okay, so more of African, north African culture, 

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

okay. And as far as like Ylaruam did it just had the one big city on the oasis. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

there's this other oasis but there 

Bruce Duncan  

smaller city, But yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

because in the in the gazeteer, a whole bunch of more oasises and random cities and

Bruce Duncan  

yeah, but you'd have to know where they are Or else you'd go get out there in the desert and die.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Well, they, in my opinion, they make the Gazetteer version of Ylaruam way to populated.

Bruce Duncan  

Okay, I would agree with because it's not supposed to be very populated. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah.

Yeah.

Bruce Duncan  

You know, only what the Oases can support,

Lance Duncan  

but it's, It's not Muslim at all? 

Bruce Duncan  

No. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so that's that'll be different from the gazetteer. the gazetteer kind of made a whitewashed, a family friendly version of Muslim.

Bruce Duncan  

No, no such thing. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah,

okay.  so basically Saharan, north African of the ancient world cultures. Okay. 

Bruce Duncan  

Oh,

besides the Muslims were like, what, 700 years after Christ? Whereas most of this stuff  this I'm thinking is before Christ

Lance Duncan  

right. Well, I'm gonna change it. Well, I'll get into that later. With the clerics and the church. basically I'm gonna have to clerical theology be more Christian oriented.  because based on their abilities, based on the original rules, they're obviously Christians.  So that's that's pretty much the biggest change I'm gonna make it to the setting. Oh, anyway, from there the five shires, let me read the description.

five shires. the five shires are the homeland of halfings. the area is ruled by council of five sherrifs; who each control a Shire. four times a year the sheriff's meet at a great feast and there decide shire-wide policy by vote. So how would you describe the five shires

Bruce Duncan  

basically independent and nobody cares.

Lance Duncan  

And what was their role? Well, you said, they're so they're independent of the Empire? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Did they pay any sort of tribute or did trade go through 

Bruce Duncan  

trade went through

Lance Duncan  

armies passing through, what?

Bruce Duncan  

Armies didn't need to pass through because, they are not where large travel can happen. So they either go by the coast or they go up the river. And avoid the shires altogether. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And you said we had passed through there a couple times? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. Because you want to go that way. And they're friendly and accommodating, but they just don't want you to stay. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah.

Okay. My idea. I don't know how well this fits, how you have them. But is to have the, the hobbits basically they live in underground burrows like described in The Hobbit. And those burrows are unrecognizable to most, to humans. they look like just Hills. and they have their plots of land that are gardened, but they're gardened in such a way, they're not rows and rows of fields like humans do, they're gardened in  such a way as to look natural so they have just as much produce, but it doesn't look like it's fields of crops, 

Bruce Duncan  

yeah no, No, it's not straight lines. 

Lance Duncan  

So it looks, so like, to a human traveling through it looks like abandoned territory. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, fertile, very fertile land, all kinds of plants and animals roaming all over the place.

But very few people. Because as soon as they see you, they duck inside, the only time they come out is if you actually go into a nest of them, and then they come out to invite you for dinner. And to tell stories of what's going on in the oustide

world, 

Lance Duncan  

and I know that D&D products tried to distance themselves from Lord of the Rings, but how much did you make halflings like hobbits?

Bruce Duncan  

almost identical. The only difference was the hobbits are actually taller than the five Shire people. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Oh, you

made them. So how short do you make them? 

Bruce Duncan  

Oh, tallest one was three foot. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, no, that's, that's normal for hobbits

 is it? 

at the time of the Lord of the Rings. Different breeds of hobbits were different heights. Like, you know, a couple, a thousand years before, they were like four feet instead of three feet.  I'd have to look it up.

But you know, they gradually got shorter and shorter. 

Bruce Duncan  

Okay, which is really dumb, because, think about it. Of all the peoples. The hobbits are the ones that are getting the best foods. Yeah. So they should be growing the tallest.  whatever. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, their history in Lord of the Rings is slightly different. They get,

they get moved from place to place involuntarily. Okay, the Grand Duchy? Karameikos. we've already talked about it quite a bit, but the Grand Duchy in general, what real world culture would you compare it to?

Bruce Duncan  

I don't Know . . .

I'm thinking  uhhh....

Lance Duncan  

because we adventured mostly in Karameikos,

Bruce Duncan  

I'm thinking pre-viking Paris.

Lance Duncan  

So more French culture? 

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

Or Franks more than french?

Bruce Duncan  

right, Yeah. Definitely more like franks,

Lance Duncan  

um, so did you know that specularum is the name of a pottery district in Athens?

Bruce Duncan  

No, I did not. 

Lance Duncan  

So

and that's, that's one of the names from the original known world before this came out the campaign world.

Bruce Duncan  

right, it could go either way.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. And also tying into that, in the description of specularum. It says that they're  great builder of ships. which ties into that.

Bruce Duncan  

Right. But the difference is the reason in mind, they were great builders of ships is because that's where the people from Thyatis built ships for the Empire. They were hired to build ships.

Lance Duncan  

And so, not on this map. But on the Karameikos map, talking about Fort Doom and the Bay of Halag,  Halag is German. and then there's Koriszegy, I think its Koriszegy, the haunted keep, is, I think it's Hungarian. but yeah, there's no really, like the names seem random

Bruce Duncan  

that would, that would tend to be very good because it was opened up by the Dutch Dutch, and the Empire told the Empire,  look why don't you go down there and help out the Dutch

Lance Duncan  

so all these different names come from different areas of the Empire different cultures within the empire?

Bruce Duncan  

right, this is a more, comparison to the United States where everybody is coming

Lance Duncan  

in the Gazeteers, they do make the native traladara kind of like Hungarian Romanian culture, but the description of like the Empire of Thyatis and the Grand Duchy ruler of the natives it's more reminiscent of the, of the English right after the Norman Conquest than anything else. I don't know how much you want to put that into it.

Bruce Duncan  

I don't think so.

Lance Duncan  

I mean, the culture isn't, but the the description of the political situation is very much like the Anglo Saxons vs the Normans. Okay, so the Grand Duchy, Yeah, we went over that quite a bit. Ierendi, did we ever visit Ierendi? 

Bruce Duncan  

No. 

Lance Duncan  

And the real world analog, let's read the description because the gazateer goes way off base with Ierendi. The trading ships of Ierendi rival those of Thyatis. the kingdom sports a magnificent royal palace carved from pure white coral. The king and queen of the land are usually popular adventurer heroes. However they are without true power and serve only as figureheads. Actual rule is held by certain aristocratic families, making Ierendi an Oligarchy. so, we never went there. What type, does that sound like A specific real world culture to you? 

Bruce Duncan  

England. now 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah there's something else. No, no, I do have it.

I have a picture here. 

here it is. Okay. Oh, right here. Yeah. Okay. I see I wrote it down. Okay, so. So, you know, the original world known world campaign I was talking about? before X1 came out? So Ierendi, and that was supposed to be similar to the Barbary Coast pirates.

Bruce Duncan  

Oh, sounds good.

Lance Duncan  

So would that work with? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah it would, 

Lance Duncan  

okay. So north, basically, 

Bruce Duncan  

northwest africa, 

Lance Duncan  

the other side of Africa. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

So we have we have Northern Africa, or Northeast Northern Africa for Ierendi, and Northern Africa. Closer to Egypt for the, Ylaruam.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. Ierendi would be Northwest not Northeast. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Whatever. You know what I mean, 

Bruce Duncan  

you cartographer

Lance Duncan  

I'm thinking of too many things at once okay? 

Bruce Duncan  

yes you are. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And to go back to some of the things we already talked about. So I have it mapped out on here. So Selenica is supposed to be an ottoman culture. Ylaruam was Persian/ottoman. Because Okay, so the, on the map, there's the Alasiyan desert. so that was supposed to be Persian. But ylaruam, the city, was ottoman. Because they were located in different places, but on here they got put together. And the city states in the Grand Duchy, I mean, in the Republic of Darokin, so Akorros was supposed to be similar to Mughal India. And then more Ottomans in akesoli. So you see how the Ottomans got separated from each other? 

Bruce Duncan  

I really don't

know enough about mughal India, or anything past India going east To include them into anything 

Lance Duncan  

well,

Mughal India was like the 15th 16th 17th century 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, that would have been Persian, i mean Islamic 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, yeah. They were all the they were Islamic rulers that took over eastern India, Pakistan that area, Afghanistan. yeah. Well, we can still take aspects of the

culture 

Bruce Duncan  

I suppose.

Lance Duncan  

Oh, and,

Right, so corunglain, the city on the Borderlands, on the border with the broken lands, that was supposed to be similar to Byzantium or Thracia, that area. And then Darokin specifically was supposed to be Dutch.

Bruce Duncan  

They did do a lot of seafaring.

Lance Duncan  

Oh, but yeah this is, I mean, this is based on the . . . I mapped the . . . onto the X1 map from the original . . . Okay, so we were at Ierendi. So Barbary pirates works for them for

your version 

Bruce Duncan  

right

Lance Duncan  

let's see. Minrothad guilds, the Minrothad island cluster, is a syndocracy. The government is run by the heads of the various trading guilds. Minrothad is closely allied to Thyatis. What does that sound like? And did we go there? 

Bruce Duncan  

Sounds like crete. 

Lance Duncan  

crete. Ancient Greece? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. That's interesting. Because, again, based on this, the 

Bruce Duncan  

Crete after Minoans 

Lance Duncan  

Oh, after the Minoans, okay.

So,

yeah, okay. The, Yeah cuz in the original known world, Minrothad was supposed to be like the Hanseatic League. which kind of works, except they're islands instead of on the coast. Yeah, but that means they'd have more of a German culture, Which means the Black Eagle Baron

would have come over from the hanseatic,

from Minrothad if we're gonna make them German culture, 

Bruce Duncan  

okay, that

works. It's not what I originally intended, but it works

Lance Duncan  

I mean, we never went there. Did we? 

Bruce Duncan  

nope 

Lance Duncan  

I mean, I'm not tied to these at all, these are just the original. Yeah.

Bruce Duncan  

I remember one adventure when you guys were creating the dragon city trying to get allies. You went to Thyatis And you guys got lost. That's all I remember about that episode.

Lance Duncan  

Okay. So Minrothad, we never went there, but you were thinking more of like, Ancient Greece around the time of . . . Well, the Trojan War. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. Maybe a little before. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. But the time period of ancient Greece that we don't really have written record of right. The Dark Ages. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. The Minoan culture. That was really old.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. No, the Minoans were first and then the Mycenaean Greeks. They kind of overlap for a little bit. And then there was the collapse of the Bronze Age. And then there was the Dark Age of Greece, which lasted 400 years. And then Homer was around 800BC.  Which, you know, Homer didn't make up the stories, they'd been handed down for hundreds of years before him, so, yeah. so you were thinking like, ancient Greece, Dark Ages. Mythical Greece. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. That would be more accurate. Mythical Greece. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, as far as Minrothad islands

Bruce Duncan  

 right

Lance Duncan  

 Which works, it works with the whole, because this whole area was supposed to have the same language, which works if we're gonna have some sort of greek influence on the coast here then it makes sense for the islands to have a similar, Greek. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right.

Lance Duncan  

Thyatis, we already talked about it a little bit. Did you make it more similar to Rome? Or Constantinople? Cuz here it describes it as the Byzantine Empire 

Bruce Duncan  

No, I would have made it more constantinople. because that is byzantine. 

Lance Duncan  

okay, Because saying Byzantine Empire could just refer to it being complex, a complex legal, and political situation . . .

Bruce Duncan  

True, That's not how I had it. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay,

so more of Constantinople, the second rome, than rome iteself? 

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. So does that mean

Bruce Duncan  

that's why they were a independent ally, to the Empire.

Lance Duncan  

So does that mean that Thyatis city is eclipsing the imperial city at this point? 

Bruce Duncan  

No, 

Lance Duncan  

or is approaching?

Bruce Duncan  

well it's getting close but no. I mean, the only reason Thyatis is as big as it is, because they have great commerce with the Empire. If not for the Empire Thyatis would be fallen.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, okay.

and we already said atruaghin. that leaves, Oh, the Thanegioth archipelago. oh, it doesn't really have a big description for that, doesn't really say anything except where it is. Okay, so that's the description of those places. that's from X1, now to my other questions about our . . . maps. so we went over those, ah, think I have it with me, I do. 

Okay, so the original 81 expert book, there is a map of Karameikos. Okay, so you know how we drew in this river, the river above the mountains, it normally stops just northwest of the dwarves of where the dwarf label is, right. But we drew it in. We also drew in like a waterfall or something by the lost Valley. Where, which is the source of that river?

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. At what point did we draw that in? Do you remember? Cuz I think I'm pretty sure I remember. But I'm pretty sure when we weren't using this map at that time, so maybe I'm wrong.

Bruce Duncan  

I drew it in for another threesome that was playing that were going into the lost Valley, and I had them peek over the tops of the mountains and saw this beautiful waterfall going off to the west.

Lance Duncan  

But you didn't include that when we played?

Bruce Duncan  

Not until you actually got through the lost valley,

Lance Duncan  

but you didn't, you included the geography to go the same route? 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so I could be totally wrong here, But I do remember. So you remember my half drow character, mahonri? 

Bruce Duncan  

right 

Lance Duncan  

There. Basically, we caused an avalanche of, basically like a mountain to collapse, which created a big giant flood. And then a permanent river resulted from that eventually. Yep. And that's what I thought This drawing was. But that was when I was in like, my senior year of high school. And I know, I'm pretty sure we weren't using this map at that time.

Bruce Duncan  

No, it wouldn't have been that. it wouldn't have been there. 

Lance Duncan  

Do you remember where that was?

Bruce Duncan  

that would have been way further west. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. So like by hule? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Okay. So you also have, you also have this little pit thing drawn at the edge of the foamfire valley.

What does that represent? 

Bruce Duncan  

That was the, where I thought threshold was at the time. 

Lance Duncan  

Oh You placed threshold up here? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. Further up than it actually is. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Cuz, on the, Yeah, on the actual, the expert map where thresholds is, it's right here on the fork of the river. but that was supposed to be threshold? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Cuz that's also the spot where there would be the, the tower and gate into the pass into the mountains to get the lost Valley,

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, let's see what else.

So on here, you drew in pencil a road network. We've talked about, but we haven't talked about it in these interviews. But what were these roads, where do they lead? who built them? 

Bruce Duncan  

They weren't roads You could take wagons on, but they were roads that you could walk on foot. 

Lance Duncan  

They were trails. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. Okay. And they were well known trails, but few people liked to travel them because they were so dangerous. 

Lance Duncan  

Right.

Okay, so here, we have a whole half page. Yeah, a whole half page description of the gnomes and how they're isolationists. And then it has a map of a gnome lair. So do we ever have much contact with the gnomes? did we ever go into one of their lairs?

Bruce Duncan  

No, you did not. And the gnomes I put, there's a ferry in that.

Lance Duncan  

Well in the B10 Adventure?

Bruce Duncan  

 right 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, it's over here. There's a, a ferry goes across this river.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, I was having those gnomes as outcasts from the gnomes. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay,

the ones above the surface, 

Bruce Duncan  

right.

And there were quite a few. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay.

Yeah, that was my question. Can you describe each of these settlements, like wereskalot? It's labeled here as a, As a fort or a keep . . .

Bruce Duncan  

that would have been up in the hills

Lance Duncan  

it's ruins.  

Bruce Duncan  

that would have been up in the hills above the five shires.

Lance Duncan  

Cuz you also mentioned when we talked about black eagle, black eagle had a werewolves and stuff. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

Where are those from, wereskalot? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so wereskalot, There's werewolves and stuff like that. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep, monsters 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, cuz that is across the border in the five shires. But that's not like a hobbit place. 

Bruce Duncan  

No, it's not. They stay away from it 

Lance Duncan  

Do the werewolves prey on the hobbits or what? 

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. 

Okay. Do you want to describe Luln, in general?

Luln was a town developed before the black eagle, that was there to create, I guess you would call them Rangers like in the movie Lord of the Rings,  To travel these roads and help the people you know, the merchants and everyone get to their destinations. So, adventures for hire

Lance Duncan  

Yeah.

We already spent a lot of time talking about the black eagle, what about the haunted keep? Which is koriszegy

Bruce Duncan  

that was what was there before the Empire. And that was the original 

Lance Duncan  

natives? 

Bruce Duncan  

not natives, but the original rulers of the entire Karameikos

Lance Duncan  

Oh so there was a big Kingdom centered right here?

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay.

and So how did it get ruined then? Was it by conquest or before? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah the elves were tired of them beating up on em 

Lance Duncan  

Because here It says, Does it say anything about it? I don't think it does.

Because in the Basic Book is where the haunted keep gets introduced and has the background for it, and It's supposed to be wererats or something at the bottom. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. it's also where the two wizards lived after the keep fell. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah.

What about Kelvin . . . Kelvin for us? I mean, we already talked about it  but 

Bruce Duncan  

Kelven's just

a good, I guess Port Town. You want to call it, on a river.  you got three rivers coming to it? you know threshold

Lance Duncan  

so it's such a trading area. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, it's a trade. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And what about Krakeatos? that's supposed to be a castle

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, that was also an old castle that was being refurbished. 

Now currently, it's outside of This border, which I've always interpreted . . . I'm interpreting these borders as like settled lands. Like it describes the settled lands in the description. I'm looking at this as settled lands and everything else as borderland or wilderness. So Krakatos is outside of the settled lands.

Right. I always thought krakatos was the place where the sword of justice elf fled to. he knew about that

Lance Duncan  

that's the mansion that we explore? 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, that makes things interesting. Okay, that . . . for us. And what about the Marilenev estate? that's also a castle. 

Bruce Duncan  

It is. That's where a lot of your espionage while you were in Kerameikos itself, or spectrolum, where a lot of it was happening, that you guys actually found out and had to take back information to the Baron. 

Lance Duncan  

Duke

Bruce Duncan  

Duke, whatever. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, yeah. let's see what else. 

okay, so up here, the fall in the river northwest from Kelvin. Where the river splits you added a town, and you change some of these Hill hexes into forest hexes? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes.

That was another elven community starting up. 

Lance Duncan  

Oh, just a minute.

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so going back to, right, so the the forest and the town you added, you, can you describe what you were doing with that? 

Bruce Duncan  

they were outcast Elves from the Elven community over here.

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so from rifflian and those elves 

Bruce Duncan  

right, because they felt that the horses were more important than the rifflian elves felt, 

Lance Duncan  

yeah, because of the riflian elves trade, they prized the white horses according to B10. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. Yeah. And the other one's prized all horses. And, and they did not own any, but they treated all wild horses very well. So the wild horses loved hanging around them. 

Lance Duncan  

Right. So these guys were more like, they're your more typical hippie nature loving elves? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Whereas these elves are more civilization, the elves . . . in rifflian they're more civilization organized. And they use horses as mounts

Bruce Duncan  

right. mounts and currency. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, yeah. Okay, so these guys are your. So we've got a whole nother offshoot that's your hippie lovin' elves. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, only about 100 of 'em. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. okay, and talking about your road network. So over here, you added a little settlement in the five shires just off the coast? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Basically, straight west from the Black Eagle. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right

Lance Duncan  

What's that?

Bruce Duncan  

that was a group of hobbits that liked humans. And so they were going to start a town on the coast for humans to come and hear the hobbit's songs and drink the hobbit's ale.

Lance Duncan  

So they're architecture would be like human wooden houses?

Bruce Duncan  

 Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Like, kind of like bree in the Hobbit or lord of the rings 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes! Only much smaller. 

Lance Duncan  

they built for Hobbit size and not human size?

Bruce Duncan  

They tried to but they didn't quite understand how tall humans could get

Lance Duncan  

oh, they tried to build for humans, but they didn't build tall enough. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. So any really tall human is going to be bumping his head. 

Lance Duncan  

So like the ceilings are like six foot tall? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, basically. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. So it's like, just, a human can fit, but it's a tight fit, 

Bruce Duncan  

yes. 

Lance Duncan  

I think that's everything for that map. oh. So all these, where there's all these dwarves and gnomes, and goblins and kobolds, So there's all these cave entrances, Did you keep track of, I mean did you keep those? how were those integrated into the setting?

Bruce Duncan  

I kept those as random encounters. if You went through an area that had a name on it? You random encountered that 

Lance Duncan  

right. And over here, just north of the haunted keep the cave up there. You wrote dwarves in there, but it didn't have a label? 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. That was some dwarves that were, again, kicked out. And that was because they like to do too much trading with the humans and not enough with the dwarves.

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Um, so also at that cave, so if you look at the 83 expert map, this one . . . No, too fast. Okay. So on the 83 expert map, it places some modules and where it places . . . I can't even, it places B1 right up where this cave is, Where you labeled dwarves,  that's the search of the unknown with the mushroom cover. 

Bruce Duncan  

Oh, yeah. That would've worked. 

Lance Duncan  

So did you place it there? I know. We talked about where you placed it when we went over . . . 

Bruce Duncan  

that would have worked and the dwarves moved into.

Okay. After we cleared it out. Yeah. Okay, that works 

because they heard the tales. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. I think that's everything with this. Okay, so now, I guess I should put the rest of the book back inside the book . . . okay, now going to the, so we have the TSR hex booklet. We, I actually still have the cover. I found the cover in your old notebooks. 

Bruce Duncan  

Oh!

Lance Duncan  

yeah. The pad, the cardboard pad and cover. Yeah. Still have it 

Bruce Duncan  

oh interesting

Lance Duncan  

 I don't keep it with it because it's completely unattached. but Yeah. So, so you're saying there were some pages missing form the Hexbook? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes, there are. I don't know which ones they are. I just know that there was more stuff. I just don't remember what it was. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so this first page that we only have part of it. it's southeastern Kerameikos Basically. Specularum is on the eastern side of the map. And fort doom
is on the western side of the map. 

Bruce Duncan  

that would mean its the Southwestern, 

Lance Duncan  

sorry, southwestern. I'm sorry. well it's Eastern, It's Eastern as well 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes, it is. 

Lance Duncan  

okay. So can you describe all the, so you put several different settlements here, are, do those represent keeps, because in the expert map, a square represents a keep. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. That's the house where that elf went to. 

Lance Duncan  

Oh, that's, because this is Krakatos here. 

Bruce Duncan  

Okay. 

Lance Duncan  

That's Krakatos. This is Marilenev. 

Bruce Duncan  

Oh, okay. That was Marilenev. Yeah. That's krakatos? okay. Maybe I changed it.

Lance Duncan  

One of these is the mansion? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

well Because one of them should be a village, because the mansion is supposed to be a day's walk away, basically.

Bruce Duncan  

Okay, so that would be this, the mansion, and that would be a village. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, crackers was supposed to be a keep originally. And it was on the expert map. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

I mean, of course, there could still be a village there. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

I mean, it's not like they had a . . .  

Bruce Duncan  

the reason I put it over there was because there was a river there. And in the adventure, you go out to the backside and into a river. 

Lance Duncan  

That would be the mansion. Yeah. Then that would be the mansion. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

So this is the mansion of the sword of justice. And so the, you placed the village to the, to the west, directly west, 

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

I guess we can calculate the scale, I'll probably calaculate the scale later. when I make the blog post. What about all these other places?

Bruce Duncan  

Well, this one down here was a special keep. It was on the coast, and it was called the keep, the coast keep. It was merely for garrison. And for being able to watch people come around, the peninsulas

Lance Duncan  

okay. Yeah, that's the . . . But that's the keep to on the southern coast Where the cliffs are. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep

Lance Duncan  

that's just to garrison the coast. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

What about all these other, are those keeps or what?

Bruce Duncan  

that's a keep. And this is a keep

Lance Duncan  

and are these managed by Lords, by someone the Duke appointed? by what? 

Bruce Duncan  

that would be someone of the Duke appointed and it could be as low as a sheriff

Lance Duncan  

Cuz like they could be his personal retainers. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right . . . as few as 20 men at arms could be in one of those. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Which is historic. Yeah. A lot of keeps historically had, some of them only have one Steward in the  keep,

Bruce Duncan  

really? Okay 

Lance Duncan  

well because there were so many keeps in the medieval era. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah thats true

Lance Duncan  

they were everywhere.

Bruce Duncan  

And this is luln and this is another keep 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if this map . . . Oh, you have another, is that a keep or a village? 

Bruce Duncan  

thats a keep. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Yeah, so all these are keeps except for, you have a village just north of the fort here, what's that?

Bruce Duncan  

right. that I don't remember, that might be a keep. I made it a village but it might have been a keep and Some farmers have settled around it. 

Lance Duncan  

And what type of cliffs were these? Are these like the cliffs of Dover or like something else? 

Bruce Duncan  

More like the cliffs of La Jolla, California. In San Diego county. a good  200 feet, but there's shoreline. its not a Rocky. It's not a rocky 

Lance Duncan  

oh yeah, there's like the beach leading up to cliffs? 

Bruce Duncan  

right 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, I know what you're talking about. And those would be like, those would be like limestone or would be 

Bruce Duncan  

more like sandstone 

Lance Duncan  

sandstone I'm not sure . . . cuz I know exactly what you're talking about, but it's like, it's like flaking dirt coming off. It's not like solid rock 

Bruce Duncan  

right 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah 

Bruce Duncan  

I think that's sandstone it's very sandy I know that 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. so that's the first page and your borders of the hills are slightly different than the expert . . .

Bruce Duncan  

I didn't have the expert map.

Lance Duncan  

Well, this one. 

Bruce Duncan  

Oh, yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

I'm assuming you're probably not . . . 

Bruce Duncan  

I was trying to . . .

Lance Duncan  

cuz your scale. Oh, and then you have you can barely see it. But over by the, well I guess it's also . . . but the area, you have the border, And then it looks like you marked off farm, that is farmland right? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so that's farmland, that would be the settled lands. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right . . . On the back . . . 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, second page, we have the west edge of the map cut off. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

we've gone over this several times and We've tried to identify, and then we decided that It's not right. 

Bruce Duncan  

I think that's luln. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so the big, the big dot? You think that's the luln 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

What scale is this at? 

Bruce Duncan  

I have no idea. I don't 

Lance Duncan  

cuz if that's luln and luln is up here. So you went up in a deeper scale on this?

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

Cuz you have these outlined red marks, if we know the scale what those are,  are those, Those could be like the six miles. 

Bruce Duncan  

It's possible. 

Lance Duncan  

You know the Six Mile from the expert map. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

That's my guess. So if this is luln? I'm assuming theses solid lines are the rivers 

Bruce Duncan  

right. Because they have bridges on them

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. And then we have these bridges and then we have dashed lines which I'm assuming is a trail 

Bruce Duncan  

right 

Lance Duncan  

Which if that is luln and this goes this way that would be going to the haunted keep, 

Bruce Duncan  

right 

Lance Duncan  

correct? Let's see luln, that does match up kind of closely. But then you have a swamp just south of luln here 

Bruce Duncan  

right, I think a better description would be an abandoned beaver on. and the reason beavers abandoned it is because it became a swamp. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. 

Bruce Duncan  

I decided to put that in 

Lance Duncan  

and what's this cliff with this little thing? In the middle, north of luln.

Bruce Duncan  

You remember the gate that was backed up against the cliff and was falling down and there was a carrion crawler 

Lance Duncan  

castle Mistamere?

Bruce Duncan  

 Yeah,

Lance Duncan  

you put that there? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Oh! I mean, I can work with that. But officially, it was supposed to be by threshold. 

Bruce Duncan  

I did not know that at the time. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Cuz in the basic, cuz I thought that how you got them together? Because there's the basic 83 set with the dragon fighter. Right? I thought you got that at the same time as the . . . I thought You bought it at the same time as this book? This one 

Bruce Duncan  

nope 

Lance Duncan  

I thought you bought them together? 

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. That was separate 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, cuz they came out in the same year. 

Bruce Duncan  

That might be, but I did not buy that immediately.

Lance Duncan  

So it has the keep in the basic set, in the expert said it says you can place it just north of threshold. 

Bruce Duncan  

Okay, that's fine. But, 

Lance Duncan  

but if you if you placed it here, yeah. Then that's where it's going to be on my group. 

Bruce Duncan  

Okay, 

Lance Duncan  

I mean, cuz we went through there several times. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes, you did. 

Lance Duncan  

and if That's where it's supposed to be, That's where it's supposed to be. 

Bruce Duncan  

And that's where you found the dust bunnies. 

Lance Duncan  

I mean it's one thing for me to change something that you had ideas for that we never ever ever went to like minrothad or Ierendi or something like that, but like this? That's definitively in our campaign. That's

Bruce Duncan  

that's always the first castle or first keep though I ever took anybody through.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, yeah, that and B2. We talked about b2 . . . so you're, you're pretty sure this is luln? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Because other times we've talked about it you weren't sure if it was rifflian or what 

Bruce Duncan  

No, I'm, I'm pretty sure that's luln if that's the keep that has that cliff side. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Yeah, this is starting to make sense now. cuz, more sense than the other time. Iwe've talked about this map. And I'd have to count these. But that looks like it could be, Like maybe . . . I don't know. That looks like it's about 20 across maybe 30? 

Bruce Duncan  

I don't think there'd be 30. 

Lance Duncan  

I don't know. I'm guessing at this point I'd have to count though. 

Bruce Duncan  

I think 24 would have been more accurate. that's what I was going by back then

Lance Duncan  

let me pull this up. Because if that's, I'm trying to figure out if, if those red lines are either the six mile map, or the 24 mile. right. So I don't think it's based on the 24 mile map. Because luln's not even marked on it, right? but If you based it on this map, then we have luln, which is a hill hex. And you would also change the orientation because the way it's set up, you have the big hexes is going directly west east . . . Where they're opposite orientation on the six mile. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, either your north isn't at the top of the page, Or you, It's not based on six mile map.

Bruce Duncan  

I don't think it's based on six mile map. You got to remember back then.

Lance Duncan  

It looks like you. Yeah, well, it looks like you tried to. Yeah, cuz See, there's this Forest Valley hex. Just southwest of luln. And there's this group of trees, just southwest of luln here. so it looks like you did base it. But that's not what the red lines represent. You have no idea what the scale is though? 

Bruce Duncan  

No, 

Lance Duncan  

because we know those red lines aren't the six mile . . . Because there's that valley hex and then there's a band of hills. And then there's more forest which kind of matches up with the forests on this 

Bruce Duncan  

right. And I only put forests on the outside of a consolidated forest. The stuff that's on the inside is still forest. I just only did the outside edges.

Lance Duncan  

Well, it looks like also here. So the pen lines look like they could be rivers. And these big markers look like roads.  Because it goes through luln. And it goes through the bridge, not Under the bridge. And if you look closely, those match up with your pencil marks on the expert map. like this, This trail going south, matches up with this just going by . . . oh, I and this right here on the edge of the forest. This square in the circle, plateau. that must be the haunted keep. So this trail cuts across through the forest. out to rifflian and Kelvin. That's the trail on the north side. I see where it matches. Yeah, that's definitely luln. If we're looking . . . I'll have to do a closer inspection and see what scale is that maybe these are supposed to be 20 Maybe these are supposed to be 1 mile hexes

Bruce Duncan  

the fact that these are rivers Doesn't mean River. It means there's water flowing.

Lance Duncan  

Well, yeah, it's the the map doesn't show all the rivers, it's too, it's too small of a scale to show. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. I mean, if you think of Robin Hood Men in Tights And how little John fell into the creek.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, I know. 

Bruce Duncan  

I can't swim! I can't swim! 

Lance Duncan  

Oh, And then here at the edge of the swamp You have a little plateau symbol, Is that supposed to be the old beaver dam, or what is that? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

is that an actual plateau? 

Bruce Duncan  

No, that's the beaver dam. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Okay, so that's that. 

Bruce Duncan  

What happened was it changed the course of the river. Where there's . . .

Lance Duncan  

Yeah,  Yes.

Bruce Duncan  

But then once it became a swamp, it quit going that way but you know, in a high flow year it will go that way. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Okay. Okay, back to the map I really want to talk about. so here, is your, okay, this is your first attempt to make the known world on your own in hex paper, 

Bruce Duncan  

and I definitely got tired of doing. 

Lance Duncan  

so, some certain things are slightly off. Ylaruam being a forest. 

Bruce Duncan  

I know 

Lance Duncan  

you want to talk about that?

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. 

Lance Duncan  

Cuz I think what, when we talked about this before, off audio, we, you had said this was back before you ran it with us kids.

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. It was back before I ran it with anybody.

Lance Duncan  

Oh, I thought you said you when you're running with mom's Freinds 

Bruce Duncan  

no, it was before that. I mean Well, it was with them. But I'd gotten this book about the same time I got my very first dungeon master's manual. And so I started doing things because I wanted more detail.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Okay, so. Okay, so you Ylaruam is a forest? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, no kidding. 

Lance Duncan  

You have nothing to say about that? 

Bruce Duncan  

No. I made it a forest. 

Lance Duncan  

And you have several cities in Ylaruam.

Bruce Duncan  

That's correct. Because it's a forest. Yeah, so it can hold more people. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. It doesn't even look like you have . . . Oh, let's see. Oh, and, malpheggi Swamp. You have a capital city in the, well, You've turned the swamp into farmland. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

And you have the capital city there. 

Bruce Duncan  

That's right. 

Lance Duncan  

Did that ever make it to our games? What is that? 

Bruce Duncan  

nope, Never did 

Lance Duncan  

What was it supposed to be? 

Bruce Duncan  

salt lake. 

Lance Duncan  

Oh, oh. Okay. 

Bruce Duncan  

Because they went and changed the landscape  

Lance Duncan  

they drained the swamp.

Bruce Duncan  

They drain the swamp. they fertilized it and made a great place to be. swamps are great if you can drain them.  Just don't be there when there's a great big storm.

Oh, and here about Kerameikos you have a ton of hills. Going into where, Like that should be forest. 

That's correct. 

Lance Duncan  

And you also have broken lands.

Bruce Duncan  

That is correct. so this map is really out of kilter. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, yeah, I'm just trying to get your  . . .

Bruce Duncan  

if you look at Thyatis there is no isthmus. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, there is, you just made it a River. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

And it's differently shaped. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. Although I did get 

Lance Duncan  

you did get the islands, but those are also in the wrong spot. 

Bruce Duncan  

yes they are 

Lance Duncan  

they should . . .

Bruce Duncan  

that and further down. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, yeah. oh, talking about the islands where the isle of dread is. They're filled with cities. You've got a capital city here too 

Bruce Duncan  

yes. 

Lance Duncan  

So what was that supposed to be?

Bruce Duncan  

I don't know. 

Lance Duncan  

You don't remember? 

Bruce Duncan  

Because nobody ever went out there for such a long time.

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so that map's just weird.

Bruce Duncan  

And nobody wanted to go on the Isle of dread. I would keep asking. And nobody wanted to go. and I couldn't figure out why 

Lance Duncan  

that was before us huh? 

Bruce Duncan  

yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

we used to go there All the time. 

Bruce Duncan  

I know. 

Lance Duncan  

Oh. are we missing that? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. This is where they start missing. 

Lance Duncan  

No, no, no, no. It's, I just thought they were in a different order. Okay, so the next page. Again, you try drawing it again and you messed up, that's why you crossed it out. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

but here at the bottom of the page, you have tunnels, and I'm pretty sure that the tunnels from x4 the pass under the mountains? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

The the great mountain pass. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. I tried to elaborate what they had in the manual. And I don't know, it worked for one adventure. but it just wasn't Right. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. And the next page is the deaths ride, cm2 deaths ride module. And I'm pretty sure this is exactly the same as the DM's map. 

Bruce Duncan  

It's pretty close. 

Lance Duncan  

I've run it several times And I used this and I'm pretty sure it's the same, I'd have to look to make sure if there are any differences. 

Bruce Duncan  

By that time I'd gotten much better. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Oh, anything you want to say about this map?

Bruce Duncan  

it had a lot more detail than the one that manual gave me 

Lance Duncan  

yeah. You know what I'm thinking that that first map we looked at, or the second map we looked at, that is 24 miles to the big square, to the red hexes. Because here you got the red hex. Oh, that's what's different. The deaths ride map in the book. These are squares, not hexes

Bruce Duncan  

that's why I did it, because I wanted it on squares. I mean on hexes instead of squares

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, yeah, so the game . . . but the red line, the big hex that's 20, that's one 24 mile hex that's the same as the book. And if you did this, I'm assuming you did this earlier, but if you had looked at that one because the orientation is the same, so it could be, . . .the scale make sure that it is the same method, Then this would also be 24 mile big red hexes around the small hexes. And I have to check the scale, that's a possibility. And that does match up with the little patch of forest here that

Bruce Duncan  

and the distances from luln to there is 

Lance Duncan  

a few hours 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, and that would be it

well yeah, yeah, cuz that's like seven miles 

Yeah 

Lance Duncan  

Okay, so that's that's map. Now you get to the official known world map that we actually used. we usually didn't use the ones in the book, we use the hex map. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

You've got, we described the Empire already. Ylaruam, we're back to Ylaruam. so the royal family I have their character sheets here. 

Bruce Duncan  

all of them? 

Lance Duncan  

all the ones I still have. 

Bruce Duncan  

Oh, okay. 

Lance Duncan  

I think there's one other that we used to have. let's see 

Bruce Duncan  

I think Sterling was the dad. the king

Lance Duncan  

okay here we go. Okay, so we're got, so Ylaruam we have, so we have sterling, the king, the only colored part of his picture is his face. He's blackface.

Bruce Duncan  

That's all Cassie wanted to do.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, my sister Cassie drew pictures for all these characters. Before we go any further let's

Lance Duncan  

Talking about you Ylaruam on this map. Okay, so we already talked about the basic culture. It's not Arabic. It's more African. Libyan African. Right? 

Bruce Duncan  

yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Okay, so we have King Sterling, we have his picture and his character sheet. You wanna describe King Sterling? 

Bruce Duncan  

Tall man. very muscular 

Lance Duncan  

7 feet tall. 300 pounds.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, very muscular. Think of Wilt Chamberlain. 

Lance Duncan  

Right. you also have written on here: comely 19. Does that mean you're using the adnd rules for comeliness?

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, I was. 

Lance Duncan  

Because that came out, That was with the unearthed Arcana. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

And that came out, I want to say 84? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, 

Lance Duncan  

Or maybe it was 85, Yeah. He also has a +4 spear of slicing with an 18 inch blade and it's returning. So he throw it in . . . 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

So did you just make this up? He was never played as a character, He was always an NPC? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, he's a master in the bastard sword, the two handed sword, and an expert in spear. 

Yep. 

and he's got an 18 strength, Yeah. Okay. Oh, you want to describe the Kingdom structure? Because Emirate, in the original experts set, it's Emirate. And then later they changed it to Emirates. plural. and Emir in Arabic really just means King. like if you translate, that's why I call him King Sterling, as a Emir, King, pretty much the  Same thing

Bruce Duncan  

right. Well, all the lands that have sand on it, he claims. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Well, the valley of Ylaruam. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Like, what was, was it like an absolute monarch? or What was the 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, it was absolute monarchy. And the warriors were thought highly of. Kinda like the Shogun and Samurai.  But it was with an African tint. We don't have enough information about ancient Africa and their civilization to say, Yeah, it's like that. Because the oldest thing we really have is Shaka Zulu, and its definitely nothing like that. 

Lance Duncan  

that's not even, that way South. Not even related. okay, so we have King who's Sterling. Then we have the queen, Morlona . . . well it's Spelled weird. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. purposefully. 

Lance Duncan  

She's a paladin 12th level and oh the king is a 19th level fighter. the queen is a 12th level paladin

Bruce Duncan  

she's kind of like the

Lance Duncan  

she has a gold pocket dragon! 

Bruce Duncan  

yeah 

Lance Duncan  

so we don't have her picture I don't remember, I'm not sure if Cassie ever drew her picture. We do have the picture of the children of a little girl and a little boy 

Bruce Duncan  

right. Cassie named them but never did them.

Lance Duncan  

And I think we mentioned this, sila on the queen's character sheet it says sila's mom and we're pretty sure Sila was Cassie's character

Bruce Duncan  

yes 

Lance Duncan  

do you remeber what character that was? 

Bruce Duncan  

we haven't, oh we don't 

Lance Duncan  

cassie has all her, I don't have any of Cassie's character sheets. or her pictures

Bruce Duncan  

Okay, sila, sila was kind of a cross between her dad and her mom. so she did do clerical stuff. So she may have been a paladin. 

Lance Duncan  

cuz there was oh, as Cassie. Cassie's other main character was Jelarin? I cant really remember. Cassie, she always used same name for her favorite characters. And I thought that was one was the black dragon suit. She was a paladin/fighter. And I didn't think she was related, from Ylaruam

Bruce Duncan  

I don't think so either.

Lance Duncan  

Unless Sila was the one with the black dragon suit.

Bruce Duncan  

I don't think so. Wrong territory for the wrong Black Dragon. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. so you want to say anything else about Morlana? 

Bruce Duncan  

No, I can't remember it. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And then we have Yeah. I don't have Yech's picture. 

Bruce Duncan  

No, Cassie didn't want to do yech. 

Lance Duncan  

I thought she did

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. 

Lance Duncan  

Oh, okay. well, we have his symbol, which is a skull with horns. Pretty fun. So describe yech. he went on lots of adventures with us. 

Bruce Duncan  

He did, he was an NPC. 

Lance Duncan  

he was the DMPC. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

That's a term on the internet these days. You're the DMPC. The PC of the DM 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, I had fun with yech. he was not very comely and he had bad social skills. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, he's a thief. He's a seventh level thief who was never very good at theiving because he's so tall. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

That's how you always described him 

Bruce Duncan  

right, He's good at springing traps,

Lance Duncan  

thought at this point. I guess by the time we stopped playing with him, he got pretty good because he's got these magic items to help him. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right

Lance Duncan  

He's got boots and cloaks of elvenkind, So that really helps with hiding. and he has armor of water breathing.

Bruce Duncan  

Well, the thing is with those boots and cloak of Elven kind, they don't fit.

Lance Duncan  

Well, yeah, their made for elves.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. I mean, he has to scrunch down just to make it work. And it was for me, he was comedic relief. When it was starting to go too bad. I would always use him to do something stupid.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. And then we have Bridget's character, pamoran The mystic. we do have her picture. I'm pretty sure this was drawn by Bridget and not Cassie.

Bruce Duncan  

Yep. it was

Lance Duncan  

I'm not sure. Yeah, she's a 4th level mystic. She has like no items at all. 

Bruce Duncan  

No, but she believes she 

Lance Duncan  

she had some stuff that got erased. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, every adventure she would get, She would collect stuff and then she would give it away because she was a mystic.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. Okay, so that's the royal family. And then basically, the Emir of ylaruam was absolute monarch. Did you always call him a king in our games? 

Bruce Duncan  

I did. 

Lance Duncan  

Which I guess is translated. I mean, if they're called Emir . . . language be translated King. There . . . Yeah. Okay. so other questions about this known world map. oh, so you have marked farmland.

Bruce Duncan  

I marked an awful lot of farms.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. So basically Thyatis Empire above the strait is all farmland, 

Bruce Duncan  

right

Lance Duncan  

portions of specularum. Basically the settled land and you also have farmland up here. The river, by the river split. Okay, where you have the Elven town

Bruce Duncan  

to me. Farmland is land that was farmed at least once. It may not be under cultivation currently,

Lance Duncan  

so does this, so for actual gameplay purposes does this farmland like, you know how d&d separates between settled borderland and wilderness? Does the farmland on these maps represent settled?

Bruce Duncan  

No. Because you know, once there was a farm there now there isn't so then that's because the people have left.

Lance Duncan  

Okay, well, except for that but like, areas where we know it's still farmed, like, like here up in Darokin, like you have this big strip between the forests and the mountains and the hills. 

Bruce Duncan  

All of that was farmed at one time or another. but does not mean that is currently being farmed, but is definitely within the settled lands. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. Cuz settled just means like, it's under governmental control there. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes, 

Lance Duncan  

there's not gonna be a lot of monsters, 

Bruce Duncan  

right

Lance Duncan  

 And then areas, and then theres a set definition of like, how much area around that it's gonna be borderland and everything outside of that it's gonna be wilderness. Right. Okay. And I notice you don't have any farmland in glantri, 

Bruce Duncan  

no, 

Lance Duncan  

oh, that's another question. You have these. All over the place you have these pink horizontal lines, like in five shires, South of thyatis and in glantri. what do those represent?

Bruce Duncan  

I don't remember exactly. I was going to write down the legend. but didn't get to it.

Lance Duncan  

Because they're, they're not just grassland because we have grassland up in ethengar. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. I would consider them more like the grasslands that are cultivated specifically for growing grass like alfalfa. which is technically farmland, 

Lance Duncan  

these are like steppes, 

Bruce Duncan  

right. And grass grows wherever it grows, whereas the other ones you're trying to get the grass to grow. 

Lance Duncan  

So this is just a different type of, maybe not intensively farmed? 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. But it is 

Bruce Duncan  

low tech, farming, 

Lance Duncan  

it's, but you would also consider this to be settled? 

Bruce Duncan  

Yes. 

Lance Duncan  

Okay. So the pink line areas are settled, but they're not necessarily intensive croplands. 

Bruce Duncan  

Right. 

Lance Duncan  

Any other questions about this map. There's not really that many other differences On here. We have the dragon city on this map. We'll be talking about Dragon city a lot,

Bruce Duncan  

right. I added it 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. So there's that map. I think we have one more. Right. Okay. So then we have the map for X4. You copied that directly here. I think there's a couple of differences you put on there. 

Bruce Duncan  

I did. 

Lance Duncan  

Like, yeah, you made this all green. Like, by the lake in the north? Did we ever end up here? 

No. And there's a city up there too. And we'll go more into this when we go into the actual adventure. I'm just looking at the map, The hex map.

Bruce Duncan  

I think up here is where the guy is sitting on Blue Dragon.

Lance Duncan  

Is that where we met the blue dragon first?

Bruce Duncan  

I think so.

Lance Duncan  

We'll get into that. cuz That was when we went on that adventure. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. And that's just north of the lake in the mountains. And then we have x, then we have the map for x5. And this is all pretty much verbatim. I don't think you the farmland was in the module map. 

Bruce Duncan  

No it wasn't, 

Lance Duncan  

but that makes sense. There's some hinterland for each of these cities, 

Bruce Duncan  

right. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, I think you added some trails, 

Bruce Duncan  

and theres this escarpment, 

Lance Duncan  

oh that that was already there. That's in the module 

Bruce Duncan  

right. initially I made the escarpment go longer. Than what they showed it. They only showed it across the river vein And out to here. I went all the way to the forest.

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, it extends in a different version. It changes shape into . . . 

Bruce Duncan  

oh okay. 

Lance Duncan  

You have anything else to say about these two maps?

Bruce Duncan  

No

Lance Duncan  

Okay. And then we get to my maps.

Bruce Duncan  

Okay. oh go back, the Last one of mine. Yeah. The pass 

Lance Duncan  

the pass is up here. Yeah, this is the pass.

Bruce Duncan  

Okay. I could not justify putting the caves to the pass on a full sheet of paper. So that's why

Lance Duncan  

that's why you put it back there. Yeah.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah. Because I was figuring I was gonna make a lot more maps than I did. Yeah. 

Lance Duncan  

Well, there were other modules that have more. That would have filled up a page, but I guess you never mapped them 

Bruce Duncan  

no. 

Lance Duncan  

And these x4 and x5 maps, they don't really line up. 

Bruce Duncan  

No, they don't 

Lance Duncan  

very well. And it looks like you didn't even try to fix it. 

Bruce Duncan  

Nope. My mapping skills do not match yours, lance. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah, so that's the hex maps. And I guess that's all talk about this session unless you want to go into this other paper stuff I have, which I think we can wait. That's about your old characters and some other notes you have.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah, we'll do that another. 

Lance Duncan  

Yeah. All right. Next week. Next week, we'll go into another character, PC discussion, but it'll be your characters.

Bruce Duncan  

Yeah.

Lance Duncan  

and your notes that I can't make sense of. 

Bruce Duncan  

Yep.